| 13 October 2012 | 32 Comments
 
 

Tunisia’s National Constituent Assembly

According to Constituent Assembly members, a controversial article has been moved from the section on rights and liberties to the preamble of Tunisia’s draft constitution. Nicknamed “the blasphemy law,” the article was proposed by ruling political party Ennahdha and prohibits “insults, profanity, derision, and representation of God and Mohammed.”

It was originally reported by AFP that any offense to the sacred would be taken out of the Constitution. Mustapha Ben Jaafar, the head of the National Constituent Assembly (NCA), told the news agency that it was too difficult to define what was sacred, and therefore, they could not criminalize that kind of offense.

Brahim Hamdi, an independent member of the NCA said, “The only word that was taken out was ‘criminalization’.”

Salma Bakkar, a member for the Democratic Bloc, confirmed this, saying that the article was moved to the “general principles” portion of the constitution’s preamble.

Hamdi commented that the sacred parts of Islam are very important to the Tunisian people. “Blasphemy fires people up in Tunisian society.” However, Hamdi said that instead of being included in the general principles, it should be made a law.

“When there is a law that protects the sacred, no one will ever breach those laws and no one will ever commit blasphemy,” he claimed.

When asked how “the sacred” should be defined, he said, “Sacred things are God, the Prophet and the Koran.” The sacred people and things of other religions also fall under this article, Hamdi said.

Many civil society groups in Tunisia have spoken out against the proposed article, saying that it violates the right to freedom of speech.


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  1. nike free oslo says:
    29 October 2012 at 21:47

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  2. Iskender says:
    16 October 2012 at 11:34

    @Tounsi

    Persepolis is not an anti-Muslim film. It was not made with the purpose of insulting Islam. The image of God as a man with a white beard, like how Michelangelo first depicted God on the Sistine Chapel celling, has been part of European subconscious and culture since the 16th century, and maybe earlier. Persepolis is a French film therefore you’ll be exposed to French culture if you watch it, hence why I chose not to be offended by the image.

    That film ‘Innocence of Muslims’ was made to provoke and I think that was awful. I don’t agree with the film at all and wish everyone had just ignored it for the insensitive, rubbish failed-attempt-at-satire that it was. There are all sorts of things in this world that are offensive but I agree with expression over censorship and the hope that educating people is better than taking choice away from them.

    You’re right, I was not aware of “very-well known politicians and intellectuals who came out of the closet after the revolution and who are leading a full-fledged campaign against Islam in Tunisia.” Who are they?

    I know the difference between banning blasphemy and banning proselytism. I don’t agree with proselytism in any form, be that a taxi driver telling me I don’t read the Quran enough or a Christian telling me accepting Jesus is the only way I will get to Heaven.

    Atheism is not a religion; it’s a belief that there is no God. I have no problem with them but I firmly disagree with them trying to denounce religion, it’s not their place to tell me or anyone else what to (or not) believe in.

    “Why is law so capable and so certain when defining what is seen as insult to normal people but when it comes to insults to God or the prophet law becomes so uncertain on what is seen as insult. Do you see the absurdity?” Spot on, it does seem absurd.

    But my fundamental point is people shouldn’t go banning things they disagree with. I disagree with some points you have made but I respect them.

    BTW, I’m more of a spiritual Muslim.

    Reply
    • Tounsi says:
      16 October 2012 at 20:06

      “Persepolis is not an anti-Muslim film”

      What … you serious?
      Depicting a girl rebelling against the authority/religion of something identified as god in an Iranian and islamic context … and you still call it non anti-islam?? what!!

      “I agree with expression over censorship and the hope that educating people is better than taking choice away from them.”

      When you say “taking choice away from them” you make it sound as if the government is planning to go into each home place a camera and use the law against those who have been caught blaspheming on video!! …
      The blasphemy law is against “public blasphemy”, the kind of stuff that the frenchiotes like so much, such as the charlie hebdo thing. Meaning : you wanna blaspheme, so be it, you are free to blaspheme as much as you want in the privacy of your home or with friends or family etc, but you are not allowed to propagate your blasphemy filth to the public which 1- may most certainly not accept it and 2- may have an unpredictable reaction cause every society has zealots and they can never be avoided. Plus going public with blasphemy can only mean one thing : proselytism, otherwise why would someone feel the need to “share” his blasphemy with the whole of the country?

      ““very-well known politicians and intellectuals [...] Who are they?”

      Strange indeed! Haven’t you never seen videos of Youssef Seddi9(philosopher), Raja ben Slama(?), Mohammed Kilani(politician), Nadia el Feni(artist) etc etc (and the list is quite long) where openly they are literally calling islam a lie if we would summarize what they are saying. If you missed any of that just take a look at their facebook pages, and you will see that islam for them became a myth … but they still get angry when you tell them you are not muslims ???!!! go figure.
      So there you have it … atheist proselytism, which, proselytism, you said you disagree with, in Tunisia, a muslim country.

      “Atheism is not a religion”
      That’s what they want us to believe, but it is easy to see that creationist religions are positive religions (God) while atheism is a negative religion (NO god). So apart from the rituals … atheism has all the ingredients of a religion.

      “But my fundamental point is people shouldn’t go banning things they disagree with.”
      nobody is doing that … but if tomorrow a majority in the society votes in a referendum that adultery and fornication should be penalized … than people should follow the rule of law … that’s democracy and that’s why muslims in western countries are urged to abide by the rule of law even though they do not agree with some of the laws.

      Reply
  3. Jay says:
    16 October 2012 at 02:52

    Well, I’m glad that you all have a good grip on the concept of freedom of speech, because that is one of the major issues with this proposition. While I would say that an in-depth knowledge of Tunisian culture is important to understanding the actons of Tunisians I do not believe that such knowledge is necessarry to understand constitutional politics.

    Speaking of understanding constitutional politics, it appears that Mr. Hamdi has a good grip on constitutional politics as well, because his assertion that a law outlawing blasphemy will eliminate all blasphemy is absolute political hogwash. But I am confident that Mr. Hamdi knows that.

    Reply
  4. angela says:
    15 October 2012 at 13:50

    No Tounsi….I apologise I was so fed up with what you were saying I said Bismillah…I meant to say something far worse…but that come out instead…by the way deaf people feel music so try again….since i am not worth your time stop posting.

    Reply
  5. angela says:
    14 October 2012 at 23:07

    I am sure that the Tunisian people are glad that you are its spokesperson. What an example you are…..such a hard hearted bigoted person…yea just what the country needs. Perfect!!!! Now that you are not attacking me maybe others can get back to the topic

    Reply
    • Tounsi says:
      15 October 2012 at 08:22

      First time I see a “muslim” ENDING his speech with “bismillah” … that’s what I meant by : you got islam upside down .. hhh

      Anyway .. debating an islamophobic ignorant Dunning-Kruger AND part-time Tunisian with a western agenda like you on the subject of “islam in Tunisia” is like debating a deaf person on music … not worth my time really.

      Reply
  6. angela says:
    14 October 2012 at 21:48

    Tounsi There are five not four…sorry your incorrect.
    Middle Eastern countries of the former Ottoman Empire favor Hanafi school doctrine, while North African countries prefer Maliki doctrine; Indonesia and Malaysia favor Shafi’i doctrine; Saudi Arabia adheres to Hanbali doctrine; and Iran follows the Shiite Jaafari school.

    Although they are broadly similar, because they are derived from the same sacred sources, experts say. However, some schools take a more literal approach to the texts; others allow for looser interpretations. And there are also important differences between Sunni and Shiite sharia. For example, Shiites recognize a practice called muta, or temporary marriage; Sunnis do not. And Shiite inheritance laws differ from Sunni practices.

    Modernist thinkers since the 19th century have argued for new interpretations of Islamic law, and actual practice varies for each individual. “The Islamic sharia is not an easily identifiable set of rules that can be mechanically applied, but a long and quite varied intellectual tradition,”

    With all these to be considered it is impossible practically to be able to please all the people all of the time and the spectrum is huge. If you want to include the made up Secular one you mention there must be six….smile

    Reply
    • Tounsi says:
      14 October 2012 at 22:21

      hhh .. you should have said you are considering shia sects so I would have included them in the counting … but congratulations for reading about islam (probably for the first time, at least I contributed something). But I still wonder where you’ve got that verse from (Being a Muslim is what you are inside). You could probably also bring us some “modernist” verses who would excuse us for not praying five times a day and would relieve women from the obligation of head-sarrf and men from modest clothes, etc.

      Reply
  7. Zee says:
    14 October 2012 at 17:00

    Nothing to add to “Angela” and “Iskender”. Suggest that “Toonsie” is an ostrich, but even ostriches would like help getting their head out of the sand. Even if not Tunisian or in Tunisia. Does he not care that others are taking interest and DO not want the “Arab Spring” which shows no signs of flowering should turn into the “Arab Winter”

    Reply
  8. Zee says:
    14 October 2012 at 16:52

    Tunisia needs jobs. As has been said “it’s the economy, stupid”
    Salafism will do nothing for the economy…simple

    Reply
  9. angela says:
    14 October 2012 at 12:51

    Tounsi you are always so aggressive. Why try to insult me when you only make assumptions…about who and what I am…..I thought this space was about free speech and somewhere I could speak without being ‘penalised’…….a democratic space if you will……….you are somewhat of a stereo type….’start shouting first ask questions later’……hoping to deflect the issue….You are a perfect example of why religion has no place in the constitution…..

    Reply
    • Tounsi says:
      14 October 2012 at 16:38

      oh … was I the first to shout and use such presumptuous, uppish and condescending insults as “are these people really stupid”?
      No it was you … But now you do exactly the same thing again and blame others for reacting to YOUR mistakes in the same manner as you.

      “You are a perfect example of why religion has no place in the constitution”
      Well … if a non-Tunisian and non-muslim is now trying to dictate to me that THE TUNISIANS’ religion has no place in THE TUNISIANS’ constitution … I guess I can only answer that your uppity and your attempts to impose on us YOUR VIEW of how the world should go is exactly the reason why OUR RELIGION should have a big place in the constitution … and as we say in Tunisia … you can drink the water of the whole sea if you don’t like it.

      Reply
      • angela says:
        14 October 2012 at 21:31

        Tounsi

        I stopped reading after your comment of not being sure Muslims are everywhere. For your clarity I was referring to the government being stupid….and the people becoming apathetic I stand by that….If you did not read it correctly cos the post had my name on it then that is your problem….your racism precedes you and as far I understand anyone who loves or shows an interest in supporting Tunisia can comment in the negative or the positive. Now you are angry cos people should live in Tunisia all the time before they can comment…..dig deep there must be some love there somewhere…Tunisa live does not ask for a profile that is vetted before one comments.

        You have attacked me for who you think I am on almost every post I make…your like a angry stalker. Sometimes you sound majoon I accept that you are passionate but I think you becoming almost unhinged now….Almost as if I killed your dog. Maybe what I say touches close to your heart.

        Tunisia needs help and it needs help from wherever it can get it….It does not need to learn about its politicians from secret videos cos they should put their agenda out there. The focus should be on the people….they need jobs to restore their dignity, fathers need to be able to provide for their children and families.

        Young people need to be harnessed and understood so that they reach adult hood and be focussed in taking their country forward….The elderly need to know that if families do not/cannot care for them they will not be left to fend for themselves. Children should be allowed to be children and full of the innocence of childhood.

        I am asking you again to stop attacking people and taking the comments off topic. You are free to agree or disagree…Lets be honest time will tell who understood the situation most. Till then stop being a armchair hater…..go join a group that is dedicated to bring peaceful change to Tunisia.

        Reply
        • Tounsi says:
          14 October 2012 at 22:07

          hhhh, I’ll take a shortcut from your first sentence and avoid the debate, unlike you, not for lack of arguments but cause debating with someone who has an agenda instead of real arguments is kinda useless.
          But just a reminder : the Tunisian people are muslims and they will never give their religion up, especially not to people like you who have no clues about it and who invented new Quranic verses such as : “Being a Muslim is what you are inside”. We will never forget what you seculars have done to muslims in Tunisia and to our religion for 56 years and we will never forgive.

          Reply
          • angela says:
            14 October 2012 at 23:00

            i included all muslim sects unlike you i do not separate one from the other. You can rest assured that you contribute nothing when your angry. I wish you luck for what ails you…..when ever you want to share ideas and debate send me your email and perhaps you could develop some compassion for the views of others, by simply listening….Bismillah.

          • Greta says:
            20 October 2012 at 12:01

            Tounsi, unfortunately your opinion is an example of the huge problem of Ennadha as a governing power – their default position is to fight, to shout, to divide people. As Zee says, Tunisians need jobs and security is necessary for the businessmen to create those jobs. Dividing Tunisians into good or bad, pious and non-pious, etc just serves to create violence where there was none and everyone loses.

          • Tounsi says:
            20 October 2012 at 12:31

            @Greta

            Oh really …
            Could you then please tell me what do you call the discourse of those secularists I mentioned in my comment to Iskender and who are basically cursing everything related to islam and muslims in Tunisia … could you please tell me whether it is Nahdha who advised them of that discourse and whether it is a divisive discourse or uniting one?

            While you are at it could you also please let me know why defending secular values in Tunisia and denigrating islam is considered “defending Tunisian values” (as if only secularists have the right to define Tunisian values) while if a Tunisian muslim defends islam in Tunisia it is considered divisive.

            “their default position is to fight, to shout”

            Are you living in Tunisia? Have you ever watched one session of the ANC and those very quite respectful opposition representatives? Do you follow Tunisian media and its colonization by shouting conspiracy theorist opposition members? …. com’on let’s be honest with ourselves and forget our ideology for a little while.

            Your opposition friends are calling for dissolving the government since day 2 of it taking office. Do you think this is helping “Ennadha as a governing power”. Plus I would have used the word “Troika” there instead of Nahdha but it shows that your problem is Nahdha and its islamic background more than it is the governing abilities of those governing us, the Troika.

  10. Truthteller says:
    14 October 2012 at 09:47

    I think the Constituent Assembly is wasting a lot of time and precious energy on “culture wars”. Al-Nahdha’s people spilled out of the prisons to derail Tunisia’s revolution. They claim authenticity, scare everyone with Islam, and try to define the religion to their own ends. Is this what Tunisians fought and died for –to set up a right wing religious dictatorship?

    Reply
    • Tounsi says:
      14 October 2012 at 16:23

      Well .. if you are American you gotta first deal with the right wing evangelical tea-party-like promised dictatorship in your country … and maybe also spend 10 to 15 years in Tunisia during the ben ali era to understand what is going on in Tunisia … only then you may be able to give us lessons and dictate us your presumptuous conclusions on who derailed the Tunisian revolution. Is that asking too much?

      Reply
    • Zee says:
      14 October 2012 at 16:53

      Totally concur

      Reply
  11. angela says:
    13 October 2012 at 12:36

    are these people really stupid or do they think everybody else is….before these people came into government when were Tunisian people…’fired’ up’….

    Are people really not watching or have they all be washed away with apathy……

    Reply
    • Tounsi says:
      14 October 2012 at 05:39

      Why don’t mind ur own business?
      Do you even know what matters for Tunisian muslims? are u even a muslim? For God sake!!! How moronic is that? A non-muslim telling us what is sacred and what is not and whether it is good to put it in our constitution or not???

      Reply
      • Iskender says:
        14 October 2012 at 11:08

        The concern is religion being used as a political device for control or oppression.

        And being a Muslim doesn’t make you an instant expert on everything to do wit Islam.

        Reply
        • Tounsi says:
          14 October 2012 at 16:10

          First, I think it was quite clear that I was talking to the person called angela who is most likely neither a Tunisian nor a muslim, probably married to some Tunisian-paper-seeking guy.

          Second, the subject is blasphemy law in Tunisia, and if you don’t know what is sacred in islam already, then I am sorry that I am gonna have to ask you to first convert to islam and then comment on the necessity to a blasphemy law in Tunisia.

          Third, the unrelated topic you have brought up of “The concern is religion being used as a political device for control or oppression.” is utterly unjustified because no one in Tunisia is calling for oppression in the name of religion. It is the other way around, secular people are calling for oppression in the name of secularism by calling for banning people from entering universities because they dress a certain way and by calling for forced removal of hijab from women in the streets as ben ali was doing and dictating to people in mosques what to say and what not to say again as ben ali was doing. I still have to hear some muslim calling for imposing Hijab on women or forcing non hijabi women to enter univeristies ….
          So religion is a muslim’s way of life, if you deprive him from it, even in his own country, it is not only injustice, it is one of the worst kinds of oppression and control.

          Reply
          • angela says:
            14 October 2012 at 16:47

            Tounsi….Guess what there are Muslims everywhere, Tunisians who dont reside in Tunisia full time and finally you dont have to be a Muslim to have read and understood the Koran or to have studied Islam…Read what I contribute and agree or dont agree….that is surely simple enough for you.

            There are some countries that do use Islam to oppress their people….Maybe I am giving you intelligence you so not have. You will also know that there is a sliding scale fundamentalist interpretation to moderate interpretation. You MUST know that….Religion is a emotive subject open to many ways of interpretation. You will know also that Tunisia does have people who are not Muslim and this article could mean they cant practice another religion because they Dont recognize Allah and therefore could be thought to be committing blasphemy…..

            This government is clearly not for the people and DOES support Salifi people. Which is cool but that is not what they sell to the public now is it. Neither is it the ticket they got elected on. Being a Muslim is what you are inside there is no place for a government to dictate to what you can say or believe…that is oppression….Salifast people shouting at people in the street because of clothing is oppression also.

            Many people gave their lives, or where maimed in the revolution, and those I know did not do so for this situation now. I think you should go back to the doctor and tell him the medicine for your blood pressure is not working. In either case concern your self with the topic and please do not become personal with me again….otherwise I may think you are trying to oppress me…..ha ha

          • Iskender says:
            14 October 2012 at 16:49

            First, if you comment in a public space, anyone is free to answer. Are you saying I’m not allowed to join this debate?

            Second, as I said before, being a Muslim doesn’t make you an expert on Islam. Do you think every Muslim in Tunisia is in unanimous agreement on what is and what isn’t blasphemous?

            Thirdly, my point is justified because the rule of law (whether on not that law is religious) can be used to oppress and silence freedom. Ben Ali was a dictator and used laws to maintain his rule e.g. making criticsm of him illegal. There is a risk that a blasphemy law can be used in such a way. Tunisia has never had something fundamentally against Islam that would motivate such a law. It stands beyond reason to say that we need a law to prevent anything could be perceived as blasphemy and who defines blasphemy anyway; it’s not up to government to define blasphemy. I’m worried about that because if this law passes artists are in trouble because anything could be interpreted as blasphemy; songs, paintings, books, movies.

            It is important to make the distinction between secularism and laïcité (the more aggressive anti-religious secularism) I think laïcité is oppressive and wrong.

            I agree with you that depriving anyone of their way of life is wrong. And I agree that “calling for banning people from entering universities because they dress a certain way and by calling for forced removal of hijab from women in the streets” is also wrong.

          • Tounsi says:
            14 October 2012 at 18:17

            “there are Muslims everywhere”
            not quite sure about that

            “Tunisians who dont reside in Tunisia full time”
            not quite sure about that either … “angela”

            “There are some countries that do use Islam to oppress their people”
            ohhh right!! … just because there is a country called Iran or Saudia Arabia, the Tunisian people must be automatically deprived from their right to choose their own constitution and must accept the one parachuted by those humanity-guardians and elite who know better than ourselves what is good for us. Furthermore, I guess following this genius logic of yours, and because in some countries alcohol is a leading cause of death, we must enforce a complete ban on it in Tunisia including in tourism and everywhere … !!!

            “Religion is a emotive subject open to many ways of interpretation”
            oh really … that’s new to me … used to think there was one Quran and four scholarly consensual interpretation schools (c.f. Iskender’s comment on who has the right to make interpretations of islam). I was not aware of a fifth school made of the seculars of Tunisia and those who want to impose a decorative, christianity-style, new type of islam … (continued)

          • Tounsi says:
            14 October 2012 at 18:32

            (… continued)
            “people who are not Muslim [...] and this article [...] could be thought to be committing blasphemy”

            Whaaaaat???!!! That’s the funniest thing I’ve ever read on this site so far. Do you mean that in order for someone to practice a different religion he MUST insult the symbols of the other religions. I can’t believe someone could utter such an absurdity. Do you even know what most religions teach or how they are practiced?! NEVER HEARD OF A RELIGION DEMANDING FROM ITS FOLLOWERS TO PUBLICLY INSULT THE OTHER RELIGIONS IN ORDER TO BE A MEMBER OF IT. But wait ….. now I see … maybe you meant the religion of atheism, even though atheists hate to call it an organized religion but you don’t seem to. So if atheism gets its legitimacy from INSULTING other religions, than I am sorry, in Tunisia we would prefer to live in an insults-free society, whoever lives off insults should move out.

            “This government is clearly not for the people”
            It’s not for you guys … that’s for sure … but believe me … it is for most of the muslim Tunisians which constitute the majority of muslim Tunisia, not for the few elite bourgeois jet set people living on top of their ivory towers in 7ay Ennasr or in the chic suburbs of Hammamet.

            “and DOES support Salifi people”
            Please be a bit more concise in the information you bring to us. Cause as far as I know the government made it clear it DOES NOT support the violence committed by salafis. And as far as I know by involving themselves in democracy and accepting not to put Sharia in the constitution, to your greatest delight, Nahdha falls out of the definition of salafis, unless the latter has evolved recently. Plus, do you suggest maybe that we kinda build some isolation or concentration camps somewhere in the south where we put all those who wear a beard and pray five times a day and want to live by islam the way it is written in the book? Is that your plan?

            “Being a Muslim is what you are inside”
            Well … never read that in the Quran or in any of the four Madhhabs!!!

            “there is no place for a government to dictate to what you can say or believe”
            Tell me where did you that happening in Tunisia?
            And please, wake up from your illusions and your phobias … islamophobias.

            “Salifast people shouting at people in the street because of clothing is oppression also.”
            Unlike you, I am living here full time!! … and I have yet to witness such a thing … what I have witnessed though, and, unlike you, this is no islamophobic stereotype fantasy bull-shit lies, these are true stories, I have witnessed niqabis getting humiliated in the metro in Tunis for their Niqab … so there you have it … your heavenly angelical non-dogmatic and non-ideology-imposing seculars.

          • Tounsi says:
            15 October 2012 at 10:20

            @Iskender
            “Do you think every Muslim in Tunisia is in unanimous agreement on what is and what isn’t blasphemous?”

            Well exactly, that’s why we have to agree on one definition we put in the constitution once and for all and avoid the chaos of everyone coming up with his own definition of blasphemy. This will benefit both parts of the society. You went to the extreme of saying music could be interpreted as blasphemous … well there you have it … a law could cut such a debate short by having defined already what could and what could not be described as blasphemous and music will certainly not be part of it so that no one could use such argument.

            “Tunisia has never had something fundamentally against Islam that would motivate such a law”
            Probably you are not living in Tunisia too … cause you do not seem to be aware of the persepolis movie or the anti-muhammed cartoons or the desecration of the Quran or of the mosques, you do not seem to be aware of the very-well known politicians and intellectuals who came out of the closet after the revolution and who are leading a full fledged campaign against islam in Tunisia, from denouncing islam as regressive and backward to literally calling for banning the Adhans and banning the teaching the Quran in schools to publicly calling islam as myth and Muhammed as psychopath etc etc etc etc I would be able to write books on how islam has been under attack before and even more agressively after the revolution.

            You seem very confused about what is considered blasphemy !!! May I ask you : are you a muslim? Cause I am quite surprised that a muslim does not know what is blasphemous. This is one of the most intuitive things a muslim can think of. What is blasphemous is anything which contains PUBLIC INSULTS to God, the prophet, or the religion of islam in general or any religion. Why is law so capable and so certain when defining what is seen as insult to normal peoeple but when it comes to insults to God or the prophet law becomes so uncertain on what is seen as insult. Do you see the absurdity?

            You also seem to confuse banning blasphemy and banning proselytism to other than islam, which by the way I would love to have such a law in muslim Tunisia. You might be right there cause insulting islam is the way atheists practice proselytism to their religion. So in that respect banning blasphemy could also be seen as banning atheists from calling to their religion, which is in my opinion quite a good thing in a muslim majority country.

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